Eleanor Sharpe

Caitlin Morrissey

So Eleanor, what is the DNA of Philadelphia?

Eleanor Sharpe

So that would be the resilience and adaptability. Philadelphia has gone from being the capital of the US, the first government, to being the workshop of the world when manufacturing was king, and Philadelphia was the heart of that. And currently now to – it's immense. And the biotech industry is growing here, and I think that's going to mushroom, especially under current circumstances. And it's also the fastest growing city for a million mill – I can never pronounce that word. Millennials. You, you, Caitlin, you people.

Caitlin Morrissey

And I wonder if you could kind of elaborate on why you think Philadelphia has these traits.

Eleanor Sharpe

You know, as a non-native Philadelphian, I'm not sure I can just speak from an observation perspective. But Philadelphia always tracks itself or ranks itself as an underdog. So I think that's the Grit. That's just like we don't expect to win, but we're in it for the fight and we're going to win anyway, regardless of what circumstances. It's like that movie rocky, I'm going to make a comeback no matter how hard it is. And that's really part of the DNA of Philadelphia. Like they're not the shiniest, the brightest the go-to. But that's OK. I'm going to get scrappy. I'm going to hang in there. I'm going to make it happen. I'm going to make this work out for us. I think that's part of their DNA. Yeah.

Greg Clark

And Eleanor, you've visited a lot of cities in your life, what makes Philadelphia different or distinctive from your point of view, if you think of all the cities, you know, what are Philadelphia's real points of difference?

Eleanor Sharpe

You know, especially having lived in other cities as well, including New York City, Philadelphia, for me personally, it's about the livability, the ease of livability, because it's not like the other cities aren't livable. It's the ease. I like to describe Philadelphia as a city that you can wrap your arms around. And within that embrace, it's everything that you need or desire within a city. Whereas other cities like perhaps New York, I don't know about London having been there, but London is even more dispersed and spread out than New York City. And you can't really wrap your arms around it. You can put your arms around different sections of it at a time and experience different pieces of it. But Philadelphia feels so manageable. You have the theatre, you have the arts. There's a downtown. You can live downtown there. All these pieces that – even though I've lived here for almost two decades, my geographic sort of boundaries are so small because contained within this area is everything.

So that I think that's one of the big differences, where I lived in New York and to meet up with friends, you have to plan. It took hours, whereas in Philly, on the spur of the moment, you can say, let's get together. And in 15 minutes, you're somewhere with all your friends. That's sort of like a very attractive key. And it's much more affordable than a lot of these other big cities. So it has all the big city trades, but. But somehow more manageable, does that make sense?

Greg Clark

And Eleanor, you are the commissioner for planning in the city of Philadelphia. Are there any particular things in Philadelphia's built environment, its land use, its road layout, its architecture that you think is distinctive or unique?

Eleanor Sharpe

Yes, and I have friends complain about it, including my family. The density of Philadelphia, it's one of the highest densities per acre, having to calculate this, as for a major city. A lot more people live in a small area than a lot of other cities. And William Penn laid out the city in 1770. Whatever he did – and I should know this, but I don't. And the streets are very small and tight knit and gridded in such a way that it's one of the most walkable cities, which is what – the physical design of it makes it walkable, which makes it livable. It all ties, right? It's not it's not one thing or any other, it all sort of pulls together. So from a physicality point of view, and the dominant housing typology is a row house. So even in Covid, it was very interesting because it's not an apartment building, that's not the dominant type. So there's no fear of getting in an elevator. There's no fear of encountering a neighbour. You can go outside and come into your in and out easily without necessarily encountering anyone, because there's all these row homes packed together. And so you have a sense of neighbourhood and a sense of community simultaneously, but a sense of individuality, and it's all based on the original plans and layout that still exists. Some of the oldest streets are still here from the 1600s. It's all part and parcel of it. Yeah, you're right. Good question.

Caitlin Morrissey

So, how many Philadelphias are there?

Eleanor Sharpe

Oh, that's a good question. Let me think. Philadelphia – and it's hard because I don't know all the Philadelphias, right, so – one second. It's also considered a city of – although simultaneously you can wrap your arms around it, it's not monolithic. So within this embrace there are multiple neighbourhoods, and it's a city of neighbourhoods. And people are very proud of their neighbourhoods. They're from South Philly, they're from North Philly, they're from West Philly. Like there's dozens of them. So there's lots of neighbourhoods. And even within West Philly, like I'm from like Osage Avenue. So it all breaks itself down to the micro. But holistically it's still contained. But there are different neighbourhoods. And I wouldn't say there's hundreds of them. It's probably dozens of them. And also sometimes there's not an easy demarcation between the neighbourhoods from a physical point of view. If a visitor comes, you can't tell, like, oh, I'm now in Germantown from Chestnut Hill or Mount Airy. Right? Like, it just seems seamless geographically speaking, but there are distinct neighbourhoods. But we have the ability to identify as one city simultaneously, it's like a schizophrenic. Yeah, a little bit.

Greg Clark

Let me follow that up and ask the obvious question, which is, how does the social diversity of Philadelphia create its unique characteristics and its social fabric? What is it about the peoples of Philadelphia that adds to its character?

Eleanor Sharpe

So demographically speaking, Philadelphia also is a segregated, I think, in neighbourhoods, so in North Philly, a lot of African-Americans live, in South Philly used to be the haven for Italian Americans. Even the Italian market is down there. But now with immigration, which is never static, there are a lot of Asian immigrants who have converted the south Philly to be having more of an Asian flavour. Layered on that are South American immigrants, which include Mexicans and other people from various countries from South America. So it's all very flavoured, but yet distinct, like I know FDR Park, Franklin D. Roosevelt park, which is in South Philly, on Saturdays, every Saturday, they have like an open-air market, like a pseudo night market in Asian cities. But it's in the daytime, where people are cooking on skewers. There's food sales, there's fruits and vegetables. Whereas in North Philly you probably wouldn't find that, right?

And the northwest, which is where the sort of – well, how do I say, the intellectual elite reside – it's very white, it's very high levels of educational attainment. It's all segregated. And I just hosted a talk on the Urban Land Institute with the author, Richard Rothstein, The Colour of Law. If you have not read that book, it is fascinating. And you layer on how neighbourhood populations, demographics look today, it's completely based on policies of federal, state and city government from the 1800s that still manifest today. That explains why the northwest is white and the north is black and south Philadelphia – it's completely demarcated. And you layer on the 1776 regulations, so where people live today, it's spot on and hasn't changed that much, which is crazy.

Greg Clark

Yeah. So of course, Philadelphia is in the middle of a crisis, as so many cities around the world. Is there anything that we know about how Philadelphia manages crises that’s important to communicate? Because this is not the first time the city has had a crisis. There's been de-industrialisation. There's been wars, there's been infections before. What is it about the way Philadelphia adjusts and responds to a crisis that we need to understand?

Eleanor Sharpe

Perhaps they don't want to be – let's say that because of the underdog complex, I think they don't want that to be truth, that they don't want that to be proved true. So therefore they do things like we're ranked number one. America is a tough, tough test case in this crisis. Let me just put that on the table. Tough things going on over here. But despite that, Philadelphia ranks number one for mask wearing. Right. And maybe it's because our city's so dense and you're going to encounter more people if you go out, that prompts you to put on a mask. But somehow, we're not – we haven't fallen into that "oh, that's foolishness. Let's just not wear a mask." And so there is a sense of like, "let's not be those people that people think we are. Right. Let's do better."

That's what I suspect. I'm not quite sure what makes people act the way they do. But yeah, I think that has something to do with it. And there's this kind of brotherhood that probably the sports team brings together, I think that's that similar gene, that's sort of like there are certain things that we get together, even if we're different, get together about, to move. Sports is one – not a big sports fan, but sports is one legitimately, and this crisis is another. Like who knew we could rank number one? And our numbers are going down. And even when I go out, you can tell like we're not in an area where people don't believe that this is real. Right. So they act accordingly. They do. I have a friend who just went south and she's like, it's two different worlds compared to what we're doing up north and what's happening down south. Nobody's there wearing masks, like it's just like business as usual down there. Where here it's there is a pandemic. So people are behaving like it's a pandemic.

Greg Clark

So you're saying something here about conscientiousness and responsibility and social cohesion and maybe something about neighbourliness. You just talk a little bit more about that. What is this essence of Philadelphia that we need to understand?

Eleanor Sharpe

You know, maybe it's like the redheaded stepchild, you've always been overlooked for so long, especially geographically being placed between New York and D.C., that somehow you are out to prove that you have just as much mettle as New Yorkers, you are just as big and bad as Bostonians, you know, D.C. people have nothing on you. I don't know what it is, but it's there. It's just like I have a keychain that says, "Please, bitch, I'm from Philly." Right? It's just the thing. I don't know where it comes from, but it's just it's just the thing. It's hard to define because – and it's not like everybody is like that, but collectively people are like, you know, it's not like people are individually like that, per se, but as a group. And I wish I could say it's because of the wonderful leaderships we've had through various mayors and governors. I think it's in spite of that. And despite that, and people still rise to the occasion to be cohesive and take things seriously.

The people of Philadelphia are resilient and scrappy, and it's because they have had the reputation of being the underdog for so many years, and carrying a torch for many years for their sports team has built a mettle within them to always keep going until they find success, and that's how they won the Super Bowl. So, yes, they have a resiliency because they're used to fighting uphill and they want to win. They want to achieve. And they're not ranked as achievers. And so they're always out to prove that despite that and in spite of that, they can achieve.

Greg Clark

That's absolutely brilliant, Eleanor.

Can I ask you to reflect on how that makes people behave with one another? Why Philadelphia has got this social capital?

Eleanor Sharpe

I think maybe that has to do with the physicality of the city. The density of the city. Our sidewalks are often less than six feet, and you're supposed to be six feet apart. So in in the messaging from the government about wearing masks, there's a whole campaign about wearing masks that probably helped a lot because of the physicality. And the way it's been presented, it's like you're not doing it for yourself. You're doing it for others, so there's this sentimentality that you're protecting somebody else, somebody else is protecting you. So there's an offence if you see somebody not wearing a mask because it's not about you, like, that means you don't care about me. So people are trying to show it's not just about me. I care about you. So out of respect, I will do certain things because the caring is not solely about me, it's about us. And that's a social capital. And you can't buy that right.

As you can see, in some cities in America, they don't have it. Whereas here, and I think the density helps if – everybody lived in a one acre house, maybe it would be different. Nobody would care because they can walk outside in their backyard. But here, as soon as you leave your door, you are with people. You have to sort of show that sort of respect.

Caitlin Morrissey

I’m interested in the point you made about this collective sense of looking out for each other that has come about in spite of past city leaders. 

But, I want to ask you, who stands out to you as being leaders that have shaped Philadelphia from any sphere or realm at any point in time?

Eleanor Sharpe

I think looking back at the mayors – keep in mind I'm not a native Philadelphian and I've only been here for a short time. But as history shows, mayors that have had deep impact on the city, positive or negative, includes Mayor Rizzo for his deeply racist, bigoted views. He was also the police chief. So his impact on African-Americans and the memory and the history he's left has left a trauma on that population. Also, Mayor Wilson Goode, who is still alive, who was an African-American, but it was under his watch that somebody's house was bombed in West Philly, the Move bombing. So that wasn't well received either. Rendell, in the economic crisis of the 90s, somehow turned the city around and prevented it from going bankrupt. That left a huge mark on the city as well. So I would say those three have if history if you're looking at the arc of history, pivotal moments in the history of time that have sort of marked Philadelphia in one direction, good, bad or indifferent. And about Rizzo. That's what the African-Americans think about him. But Italian Americans think he's a hero. So that is that that's sort of that tension there of the disconnect. nobody's any one thing, right? No, we all are the products of a summation of good, bad and indifferent. 

Caitlin Morrissey

And I also want to ask you kind of in the same vein about inventions that are – they can be current or older inventions, we've spoken a lot in past conversations about Philadelphia being the birthplace of modern democracy and that being kind of the defining invention of the city. But I wonder if there are any discoveries that stand out to you as being proudly from Philadelphia.

Eleanor Sharpe

You know that the computer was invented here, at the University of Pennsylvania.

Caitlin Morrissey

That's a big one.

Eleanor Sharpe

That's a pretty big one!

Caitlin Morrissey

And how about Philadelphia's leadership now in education and medicine, and where that's come from and what is the significance of that in Philadelphia?

Eleanor Sharpe

Well, I think that has to do with, like. Probably all the universities that live here, Ben Franklin and all his inventions and the University of Pennsylvania, Temple University, Drexel University, I think when we were putting together an Amazon proposal, we have about one hundred universities around here. I think when we were pivoting from being a manufacturing city, somehow the universities probably picked up on the direction that cities were heading and where jobs lay and started to think long term about the future and equipping residents and citizens and to meet that future and I don't know. I know University of Penn and Drexel have their own labs, so all these universities that are here help the city because they become thought leaders and then they can transfer those thoughts into actions, which pushes the margins.

And Sylvia and Lauren can talk more about this. But the bio tech vision that is mushrooming and growing here, that's been seeded and we're watering it for that to grow, especially in covid, like when science is being denigrated. But still, it's very important that Philadelphia has a major role to play in the future when it comes to that.

Greg Clark

What about some of the popular inventions like the cheese steak sandwich or some of these festivals that happen at these rather odd times of year where people dress up in the most curious clothing. What are the cultural inventions of Philadelphia?

Eleanor Sharpe

The mummers, you're talking about those people? Yeah, Philly has a lot of culture going on. Every New Year's Day, there's a Mummers Parade where men dress up in costume, so we call them, and play string instruments and parade down Broad Street. We have various, but similar to that throughout the year, we have various other parades that highlight ethnic celebrations. The Puerto Rican Day parade on the waterfront, there's the Caribbean day parade.

The cheese steaks are funny. Yeah, I'm not sure that got invented, but there's many rivals about who serves the best cheese steaks in Philadelphia. I think when we were playing in the Super Bowl, there was a bet, whoever we were playing with, that if we lost, we would send them cheese steaks or something. Tastykake, that's a Philadelphia invention. It's a whole lot of different kinds of pastries. And maybe in England, it's Hostess, I'm not sure. But there some Philadelphia staples that that do exist that make the city give it its identity. And its water, ice, I, I can't say it properly still, but water, ice. That's a thing. Shaved ice, shaved ice. It's called water ice. And it's not water. It's [accent] water. And there is definitely a Philly accent and I feel. Oh, and music, Philadelphia has so much music, jazz, like there's so much that identifies the city. The sound of Philadelphia is a thing. I don't know what it is, but it's a thing.

Caitlin Morrissey

I have a question for you as a non-native Philadelphian who's moved to the city. Did you have any beliefs about the city that were busted as you’ve gotten to know the city since you lived in it?

Eleanor Sharpe

Um, you know, I never really thought of Philadelphia until I got accepted to grad school here, so I had no sort of preconceived notion about the city. And then when I was in grad school, like, it's so all-consuming that I only experience Philadelphia when I finished grad school and stayed here to work. And then I discovered, oh, it's lovely. It's like a little secret. Like this can work. This works. It's good. So I didn't have any preconceived notions. But one thing I have experienced, which is interesting. Philadelphians are fiercely loyal to their high schools. So I've lived here for two decades and people say to me, where are you from? So at some point in one's life, one says, like, where they're from is where they live and where they've made a life. Right. So I say Philadelphia and their immediate response is like, oh, what high school did you go to?

And then I'm like, that is the qualification of what makes you a Philadelphian, whether or not you went to high school here. I didn't go to high school here, so I'm not a Philadelphian. So that's always – it's sort of always a barrier. Like you're never quite from here, even though you've made a home here. So I never thought about that before, but I have experienced that as an outside Philadelphian.

And I will give you a response to the music. The sound of Philadelphia produced the Philadelphia Orchestra. This is some notes I have, Marian Anderson and The Roots. They claim – we claim Grace Kelly and Kevin Hart, Wilt Chamberlain and the penalties, and so there is a lot going on in Philadelphia that puts them puts us on the map. And Philadelphians, as you can tell from one who is not native, don't really celebrate all their accomplishments a lot. And I think because people get on with the business of living here and it's not a celebrated – how do you call that, celebrities? It's not that kind of culture here, it's more like the working man, people just go to work, do their thing and live their life, and so there's not this sense of, oh, look at me and look how great we are. That sort of thing happens. But it's not part of the dominant culture. And I think that's part of the lack of marketing of all the good things of Philadelphia, because the average citizens are literally just going about living their life, trying to make ends meet, trying to make things happen.

Greg Clark

So you've said a couple of times, Eleanor, that it's the city of the underdog and you said it's a modest city, if you like, a working person's city, it's a city for ordinary people, perhaps. What are the advantages and disadvantages, as you see it, of that attitude and mentality?

Eleanor Sharpe

Oh, it's disadvantageous, let me tell you, because what it does and it provides a provincial way of thinking, don't have to look outside. So even coming in from outside to work, it's just like we don't need to check anybody else and it's like, no, no, no, let's find some best practices, let's see what's going on elsewhere and see how we can do this better. And it's a problem, too, because it's a working man city. There's no money. There's no money. Greg. There is no money. So whereas in New York, the parks director can get two hundred and fifty million dollars to work on one programme, one campaign, our capital budget that we can fund for our general fund dollars through bonding is less than 200 million for everything. Philadelphia is very – when I was moving here from New York, somebody said to me, why are you going to Philly? Because they have no money. And I thought they were talking about my personal income. No, they were talking about the city as a whole doesn't – isn't on the girth with, like, enough wealth to make things happen, to do things differently, to impact something, because I can throw a quarter of a billion dollars towards being transported. It's like catch as catch can. You're trying to piece together as a city all these pieces just to maintain a state of good repair, do you know what I mean, just to keep things flowing. We can't even keep up with a state of good repair. We're always hovering down here. And when that happens over 20 years, you know, if you're not even doing what you're supposed to do, how can you do more than you should? How can you influence, how can you innovate? Because you're barely – it's what's that called, Maslow's hierarchy. Like, if you're always scrambling at the bottom to feed, you're not thinking of like, oh, wouldn't it be nice? No, you can't get to "wouldn't it be nice?"

Greg Clark

Are you saying that the ordinariness of Philadelphia and its low levels of resource can lead to a poverty of aspiration because there aren’t the resources to back things?

Eleanor Sharpe

Ding, ding, ding. Yes.

I would say because of the history of this city of being a working-class city, it was available back in the manufacturing era to raise a family on a middle-class salary based on educational attainment of high school diplomas in today's world. That is not possible any longer, but the educational system still produces a population that has an educational attainment mostly at the high school level. So what that translates to in society is that you have a population who's earning potential is less. And when you apply this holistically, it does not put money in the coffers of the city to enable it to provide more resources. Resources build on resources. But if you have little to start with, and the little that you have, you need to spread thinly to just meet the needs of the people in the population and the infrastructure and fabric of the city. It becomes much more challenging to make decisions that reach towards aspirational levels.

Caitlin Morrissey

When Philadelphia is now trying to tell its story and put itself to the world, what messages does it prioritise, and does it seek to shout loudest about?

Eleanor Sharpe

In terms of business, I would say it's the bio, it's the bio stuff because that is nascent, and the trajectory is so great and potential to transform the city that that is where a lot of energy is going, to ensure – it's like a new baby. Right? You want to grow the seed. You want to make sure its nutrients, it's watered really well. So I would say that is one thing we need to put on the radar, that companies, we have lots of innovation and advancement in the field and it's amazing and it will be great if everybody knew about it. And that industry attracts itself. Right? So if this becomes known, then more people will come here, and it will build and build upon itself.

So that's one thing that we want everyone to know about. Also that Philadelphia is a great place to do business and lots of opportunities for investment and. because of our location, it's easy to live here, it's easy to live whether you want to live directly in the city or adjacent to the city or close by or at the beach or somewhere. It's easy to live here, especially now that everybody's working remotely. Well, you know, you can be at home at the beach and work and zoom in. And if you need to go into the office one week, it takes an hour, an hour and a half. It's doable.

Yeah, I would say, like, those are the big things, and the people, despite the reputation, are wonderful. I would not have lived here so long if they weren't. So yeah, there is a reputation of like Philly people are – you know, but people are people when it comes down to it. And person by person, most people are good, decent human beings.

Caitlin Morrissey

And what you've just been talking about links back to that question about misconceptions, and we approached it initially from your experience but when you're when you're going around the world to these different cities and talking about Philadelphia, what do people misunderstand? Or are you picking up any myths or folklore about the city in your conversations?

Eleanor Sharpe

Well, and it's not a myth because I thought it was true. It's like I mentioned before when I was moving here, they're like, well, Philadelphia's such a poor city. Philadelphia doesn't have money. Like, it's poor in one sense because it lacks the financial capacity, but it's rich in a lot of other senses. So the discrepancy, the equation of having money means better is not necessarily where I'm going with. Right? But the lack of money to afford certain things for the city is more what it is. But the city itself is still very rich in terms of people and culture, and historically so, and music and advancements and innovation and thought leaders. There is a lot vested right here. Would just be nice if we had some money.

Greg Clark

It would be nice if you had some money, and of course, you would have some money if the boundaries were drawn in a different way so that more of the suburbs were included in the city. One of the challenges you have is about the physical boundary. I want to ask you about two physical features for a minute. One is the city boundary. 

So the question is, is the city boundary drawn correctly and how might it be different? 

And then the other physical feature is, we haven't really mentioned the Delaware River. And I wonder if you might in a minute just say something about the relationship between the river and the city and the extent to which you think the river contributes to the personality or the character of the city?

Eleanor Sharpe

Sure. So with the river, the Delaware River made the city because that was the working river. The manufacturing happened along the river because a lot of goods and services were delivered by the river, the way the city is. There were lots of factories and warehouses, and how Philadelphia developed was the neighbourhoods were then set back from the river, as along the river all this industry took place. And if you look at old photographs, you'll see this industry, and the river was polluted and there were lots of smokestacks, a lot going on.

With the demise of industry, the city and its partners have worked really hard to transform the Delaware River into something that's appealing regionally, not only to the city, but to New Jersey, to the entire region and below. A river waterfront corporation has been at this for over a decade and have been beyond successful. They have crafted and created and utilised public space as an economic development tool to attract development to the river the city has. Made investments to cap Penn’s Landing, to bring a park there, like amenity can attract additional development that will then help to spur economic growth within the city.

So the river has transformed itself again, yet again. I think this is part of the culture of the city or the DNA of the city is to make something else into something else when it's no longer working for you. And the Schuylkill river has a trail. The upper Delaware also has its non-profit group that's focused on it. So now the river, how do we make this and how do we transform it to serve not only the city of Philadelphia and bring business and residents and people and make it a livable river and a usable river? And they have done so successfully so far. It's great. As for the boundaries of Philadelphia, I'm not quite sure how they came about. And I would say part of that delineation, it's OK, because I think if I'm going to refer to Richard Rothstein's book, the way development happened and why the suburbs exist was based on white flight, which was perpetuated by government policies, that the cities were bad, and to get away from people of colour, to escape from black people because they're degenerates. Not true, all false. But that is that is what happened. So I suspect that if we tried to get some of the suburbs into our boundaries, it wouldn't make any difference because people would move again. It's just a philosophy. It's just like, let's get away from those people is how these cities have sort of developed. That's why a lot of the inner cities and large cities have large populations of people of colour because they weren't welcome, wasn't structured. Federal home loans, you were a person of colour, you could not qualify. There's so many things that people think it's just like, oh, well, why don't you do this? No, no, no. It was deliberate and conscious. So I suspect even if we annexed all the adjacent suburbs, we would still be left with more land to deal with without a population because they would just try to escape again based on the unwarranted about people of colour.

Greg Clark

And so many of the people moving into Philadelphia these days are white people with middle class jobs. And if you like, a new kind of white population is joining the Black population who were left in the city centre when the others went out to the suburbs. Is this something that's going to be a comfortable change to people, essentially support this kind of regeneration and gentrification process? Or are there some doubts and some concerns about it?

Eleanor Sharpe

There are absolutely some doubts and concerns about the gentrification of cities, which means that white people are moving into my neighbourhood, which means that my property value is going to rise because that's how Americans structure their system, which means that soon I won't be able to afford my taxes or I'll have to move out. Or I've lived in my house, I paid thirty grand for it, and now the values are rising and now my house is worth a hundred thousand. I never thought I would see so much money in my life. And this person is telling me they'll buy my house. So I'm going to take the money and run because it's still a democratic society. So there's displacement and then there's displacement. And so it's not always well received. Point Breeze, which is mostly was an African-American neighbourhood, is now all the people buying the house are mostly white people. And so there's been clashes, there's been pushback, there's been backlash about because nobody talks about it. America's very fascinating as an immigrant. It's amazing to me. They don't really say… like they say [whispers] "Black people!" They never say that, you know, like it's very funny to me. And I'm like, why don't you just say what it is? But I come from a different psychology, so it's OK. And so I think when the dust settles, because America has to really address these issues, what will happen is it will be a takeover of a neighbourhood and it won't be necessarily an integration. It would be lovely if it was an integration. But it's not. Like I live in my neighbourhood, it was mostly Black people, but now they're building all these fancy houses for almost a million dollars, like who would have thunk? Who would have thunk? And eventually I can see I will be one of a few people of colour. I can totally see it.

Caitlin Morrissey

So if there was anything that we would have asked you, was there anything else that you would have wanted to have said about the DNA of Philadelphia if we'd have asked the right question?

Eleanor Sharpe

I think you asked a lot of good questions. I'm just trying to think of, I think the DNA of Philadelphia is one that can be replicated. Does that make sense? It's worthy, it's solid, it's healthy, it's reproducible, if it can be cloned, it should be cloned because despite all the challenges – it's not perfect, doesn't have to be perfect – but despite all the challenges, there's so much goodness and productivity that that it's worthy of being called the DNA of Philadelphia.