Gonzalo Brujó

Caitlin Morrissey

So Gonzalo, we are delighted to be welcoming you onto The DNA of Cities podcast. I wanted to start by asking, what does The DNA of Cities mean to you? What is the DNA of a place is as you see it?

Gonzalo Brujo

Well, I think DNA Cities is critical to try to make sure that cities progress in the future. So for us, it is about bringing the best citizens and communities for a city, making sure that you have amazing investors coming to your city, also attracting as much as possible, not only regional talent to a city but also international talent to make sure that people progress. And of course, as you can imagine, there is a connotation in terms of tourism and innovation. So again, I think cities today they need to of course bring different flavours, different people, but also innovate as much as possible to make sure that they stay ahead of the game. I think in today’s world, if you see how the economics and the nation branding evolves, many, many years ago, was about the nation, was about the country, was about the main flag and what it represents. But I think today the evolution is all about the cities. That is why DNA Cities plays a fundamental role for key stakeholders to see how we could be improving cities going forward.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much, Gonzalo. What a terrific place to start. So can I ask more directly about how your work is shaped by cities? And in what ways different cities or places shape or influence the way that you approach strategy, branding, marketing and communication?

Gonzalo Brujo

Well, definitely I think we need to see that the reality is that there is a mix of components that make a city attractive. Of course, there is what we call the inherited traits; historical and cultural roots. This is quite important. What are the unique characteristics of a city in terms of economic shift, political shifts, population shifts? Again, this plays an important role when you think about a city and then you go to visit for the first time the city, you have something in your mind and then you see a variety of different citizens living in the city. I think the immigration plays a fundamental role of shaping the cities and this is something that you need to take into consideration when you go to visit any specific city.

Of course, branding plays a fundamental role to find a way to differentiate and to compete. At the end of the day, cities are looking for the best people and the best citizens. Cities are looking for the best kind of tourist, tourists that pays or spend more days there and spend more money there. But also cities are also looking for investments. And also cities are looking for being protective in terms of loss not only for investors but also for citizens. So I think the brand can play a very, very important role and of course the brand needs to talk with a broader community to make sure that there is a consensus beyond politics, which I think is important.

I think at the end of the day, the role of branding is putting together different needs, different point of views, different strategies, different political aspects of a city and united all of them into a single cause, a single ambition, a single strategy and a single purpose which is beyond politics or even economics or social cultural aspects of whatever city. So that is why brands can play a very, very important role. Because, yes, there are many cities in the world but there are few ones that are beginning to differentiate and there are ones that are going from what I call a second tier city to a first tier city. There is a huge competition right now of emerging cities around the world that I think is fascinating and that is why the role of brands will play even more in the future, a fundamental role going forward.

Greg Clark

Gonzalo, if I may, before we ask you to talk about particular cities, can I just ask you to address two questions? And one is, what is the difference between discovering or creating the brand for a city from discovering or creating the brand for a company or a product or a service? How is that different? And then I also want to know how you think the branding of cities is different from the branding of nations.

Gonzalo Brujo

Very good question, Greg. I think the principles are very similar. At the end of the day, you need to have alignment of key stakeholders and you need to make sure that everyone goes to the same direction. In corporate branding or nation branding or city branding, the basics are the same. But there is much more complexity on the DNA for cities and how you can project the cities for the future. Why? Because you need to understand deeper the storytelling or what we call the historical layer. You know, this is something that is kind of more profound in the way that what is the founding pillars of the city, the cultural heritage, the architectural legacy, everything related to key people that used to live in that city in the past. So that is the historical layer. Then there is what we call the cultural layer. The traditions, the festivals, the cuisine, the music, the art, what makes the city vibrant and unique. And that is very peculiar to different cities in different countries. So that’s very special.

Then of course, we have what we call the socioeconomic layer, which is everything related to the investment, the industries, the institution, the demographics that defines the present but also the future and what will be the opportunity for those individuals that are willing to invest in the city. And this is what really makes difference. It’s a mix of private and public working together in the same direction. You know, at the end of the day, the difference between corporate brands and city branding is that in corporate branding, yes, you speak with the board, you speak with the management team, but in this case, the audience are so dispersed, their interests are so different that you need much more alignment and you need to make sure that there is consensus and there is a specific fast track duration towards any specific design strategies. So that is what we call the socioeconomic and political layer.

So that’s why there is much more complexity on managing a city brand because there is many more different interests and different stakeholders with different needs. And the beauty of that is finding that consensus on any specific strategy and making sure that everyone is aligned to the same direction, the same ambition, the same purpose is critical for success. It is not only the thinking, but it’s also the making. So also something that is profound or different in the way to activate a brand is that, especially on city branding, you need more time. You need to have not only thinking about the short-term tactical strategies, but also you need to think ahead of the game.

We are talking about projecting new buildings, projecting new constructions, projecting new airports. And those kind of investments in terms of infrastructure takes time. For example, in Europe, or for example, in Spain, one of the cities that really, really changed completely was Bilbao just by adding the Guggenheim Museum and what the Guggenheim Museum meant for that city. Just that iconic move at that time completely changed the perception, the strategy, the investments, the alignment, even the internal perceptions of the citizens of the city. So remember, many, many years ago, their own citizens, they didn’t feel that the city was vibrant. It was very business to business, very rural, and now it’s completely cosmopolitan, open, thanks to just the effect of a single museum, which was at that time the Guggenheim.

Caitlin Morrissey

Thank you so much, Gonzalo. I just want to follow up with what you were just talking about, and perhaps to ask you to talk about some of the other ways that the brands of cities are activated? You mentioned some of these longer-term ways. But in what short-term or medium-term ways is the DNA and the brand of a city activated in your work?

Gonzalo Brujo

Well, I think you need to really work on what we call the narratives and the storytelling. I think in order to activate a step-by-step strategy is to change the mind of-- because remember, you need to change the mind of your local citizens. You need to change the mind of project investors and the outside community, but also the media. So again, there is a variety of different stakeholders.

In order to do that, you need to explain things very-- you need to be very clear with your storytelling. I think the narratives and the storytelling can help to explain the storytelling in the short and in the long term. And I think more than ever, I think you need what we call a human centric approach. You know, how we can be working on public spaces, on transportation, on community interaction. So I think you need to over communicate, not only with your storytelling and your narrative, but you need to over communicate and you need to think about your citizens or your key stakeholders. So I think cities, they need to have financial planning and financial budgets over time. This is something that is not easy. You need to work and co-create with the constituents to make sure that they can understand your storytelling, understand your direction, and also be part of that. Not only it’s about,’ yes, I know what we are doing for my city,’ but also ‘I am completely involved in the city.’ So you need also the involvement of the citizens to make sure that you can win step by step the milestones on your long-term strategy.

Caitlin Morrissey

Fabulous, thank you. The final question on my list, Gonzalo, is to ask you to please tell us a little bit about some cities that are meaningful to you and your work.

Gonzalo Brujo

Well, the reality is that there is in this fight for competitiveness and success in the cities, there is a variety of different cities that comes to my mind that I think are becoming relevant. Of course, we have a set of what we call the flagship cities. Of course, the traditional ones in the European Union, we have Paris, London, Rome, you know, maybe Madrid.

But for example, I know that in Spain there is two key cities that are really evolving completely. One is Madrid. I think Madrid, something that happened in the past is that, for example, the Latin American community, especially wealthy citizens in Latin America, many years ago they were spending their money in Miami, in London and in Paris. And they did realise that Spain could offer something with empathy, with alignment, with some similarities in terms of the cuisine as well as the lifestyle. So I saw Madrid booming in terms of attracting many Latinos from many cities from Latin America over to Madrid. And that is why Madrid is booming today as one of the most vibrant cities in the world. And I can see that that is why even after COVID the city is doing very well.

But also you see an evolution, for example, in Spain of Malaga. Because one of the factors that will happen in the European Union and in Europe, including the UK in this case, is that people from colder places will love to have better lifestyle in more sunny places like Malaga. So Malaga is probably the most growing city in Spain, not because the Spaniards are moving to Malaga, it is because the rest of the Europeans are moving there. And there is a new variety of industries that are emerging, like health businesses or tech businesses, real estate businesses, travel and hospitality businesses. And of course, there is this offer of new businesses that are arriving in that specific city mixed with high quality, high infrastructure and good weather and good food and good people and happy people in that specific space. That is Spain.

But you know, we see amazing cities, for example, in the United States. The rise of Austin, Texas, with the technology boom, a lot of new business friendly policies. And I think they are really working super hard on what we call everything related to cultural vibrancy. Nashville, Tennessee, especially on healthcare and entertainment. And in North America, I just arrived last week, actually yesterday from Canada. Toronto is doing well, but Calgary is also booming in terms of going beyond oil. Everything related to sustainability, I think Calgary is playing an important role. That is in North America.

In South America, there is two cities that are extremely vibrant. We have Medellín in Colombia, especially everything related also to innovation hub and infrastructure and quality of life. Santiago in Chile. And I think also Peru, in Peru you have Lima. And Lima, something that Lima is doing is really connecting the gastronomy. I think from top chefs from around the world, many of them are from Lima and they are like Gastón Acurio, you know, doing amazing, super innovative restaurants to attract people from around the world.

In Africa, you have Lagos and Nairobi doing very well. Lagos in Nigeria and Nairobi in Kenya. In Asia, you have Bangalore. In India, I foresee a huge evolution of megacities in India. And I think Bangalore is probably the one that is standing out and trying to really redesign the city and whatever they can offer to the world. And of course Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam. It’s amazing to see the evolution of it. I don’t know if you had the opportunity, but I highly recommend to go to Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam not only because of the rapid economic growth, but also there is the offering of manufacturing centre for Asia-Pacific, which is really attracting a lot of business travellers to Vietnam.

And last but not the least, definitely something related to sports and that is why Saudi Arabia and Middle East is investing like crazy in sports players, in a mega sports entertainment in order to make sure that they attract and begin to visit. It’s definitely many, many years ago was Dubai, but now definitely is Riyadh and Doha. Huge investments in tourism, huge investments in infrastructure, huge investments in innovation. Not only the World Cup development in Doha, but I think in Riyadh, you will see that they will try to get as many entertainment and key events to make sure that that city is open up to the entire world. You know, I think the people in Saudi Arabia remember that many years ago, their city to go when they were living there was Dubai. And they said, why am I going to grow in Dubai when I can grow my own city which is Riyadh? So I think Riyadh for me is the best keep secret in terms of opportunities in cities. I see that they will be definitely evolving. And I think it’s kind of a Marxist city in the future.

And last but not the least, in Southeast Asia, I think there is two cities that I will kind of recommend in terms of booming. One is Brisbane in Australia, which again, you know, if you see Australia, Sydney and Melbourne are beginning to be very expensive. And sometimes there is kind of these second tier cities that are the ones that are booming and because they attract more people, better tax breaks for citizens in that country. And they have opportunity because they have liquidity and cash to try to do different things and try to be more brave.

So I think this is something that I recommend with the cities to try to be brave and try to innovate and break through design buildings and make sure that they kind of break the traditional paradigms of how you should be designing a city. You need to try different things to differentiate in these worlds of DNA for cities and you need to be as disruptive as possible. It is not only about the cultural rhetoric but also try to bring something completely different to make sure that people think differently about your brand. So I think Brisbane in Australia and Auckland in New Zealand, both of them I think in Southeast Asia are probably the ones that are standing out more.

Greg Clark

Gonzalo, we know, and you’ve already stressed this, that branding is very important to help cities tell a story to investors, to tourists, to corporates, and to others. But what is it that city branding based on the DNA of the city can do to help citizens feel more pride in their city? How does that work?

Gonzalo Brujo

The first thing that I would recommend and I think I have what I call the 10 commitments for destination branding. And the first one, which I think is critical, is what I call engagement, real engagement, over-communicating with them. You need to engage with the government, with the businesses, with the culture, with education, with media. And you need to know how you can engage with a purpose, with a vision of the destination. So the storytelling of having a very clear vision, a very clear, what I call elevator speech, storytelling of your brand can help everyone to be aligned. So you must engage with them to make sure that you can be aligned and everyone can roll in the same direction.

Greg Clark

Wonderful. And then my second question is, it must be very easy for cities that try to build an identity, develop a brand, foster a reputation, think about their DNA, must be easy for them to make mistakes. What are the common mistakes that you see that cities do when they’re trying to do this?

Gonzalo Brujo

Well, first of all, I think what I would suggest is making sure that you need to understand your destination very well. In order to do that, you need to really understand internally what is the perception of your city and what is externally what they think about you? You know, this is something that it’s very interesting when I did a lot of studies for the country branding of, for example, of Spain. And something that is shocking is that the perception of the Spaniards is completely different than the perception of other key interesting markets that are investing in Spain. They see us much better than we see ourselves. This happens also in South Africa. You know, the perception of the people living in South Africa versus the people next to South Africa is completely, completely different. So I think you need to untap and you need to really understand your external audiences. The people in Germany or the people in France or the people in the UK or the people in the United States will think completely different. So I think you need to also cluster segmentations to really understand those perceptions and I think you need to over communicate to mitigate those perceptions over time.

So one of the biggest mistakes that are there when there isn’t a specific branding program is that there is a lack of understanding of the perceptions or the local ones or the international ones. And I think you need to be very clear with that. That is one typical mistake.

The second typical mistake is being populist on doing something. And this is very, very, very, very typical, which is: ‘I’m going to ask all the citizens what they want.’ The citizens, they don’t know what they want because they don’t have the full understanding of the business strategy of the city. They have no clue. But usually the coolest thing to do is let’s open up a open pitch to make sure that the people in the city can design the brand. That in theory is great, but the reality is that those brands usually they never work. Why? Because there is a lack of full understanding of what the city wants and what is the ambition of that city going forward.

So I think in order to build a city you need industry experts. You need specific advisory for people that understands the city within the city, but also from outside of the city. I think you need rich content, rich individuals to help to manage the brand over time.

And of course, the last thing is sometimes brands, they get too superficial. Yes, maybe they have the storytelling, but they don’t have the budget to implement what it takes. And sometimes countries or destinations are extremely prudent on their investments. And if you really want to change your perception, you must invest. You must invest and you must invest over time because this will take time. And if you are committed with your time, if you are committed with the investments beyond what politics rules the city, you will succeed over time. So that consistency over time is something that sometimes is lacking. Change of government, change of strategy. That cannot work. The brands of the cities should go beyond any political party that is ruling any specific city. That is why the bigger consensus that you have, the bigger alignment that you have, it’s completely needed to make sure that everyone is engaged on any specific strategy going forward.

Greg Clark

Thank you very much, Gonzalo. That’s such a rich answer. And I come to my final question, which is, you’ve already given some advice to the cities about what they need to do, but what would you summarise your advice as? If a city mayor calls you and says, please can Interbrand help my city to build a brand, what’s the first advice and the last advice you give them?

Gonzalo Brujo

The first advice would be, do you have a budget for this? That is the first advice. Is this real? Do you have a budget for this? Do you think there is an intention? And do you think that your opponents in politics and the industry, the private sector, do you think they are ready to implement something like this going forward? Yes or no?

So I will begin with the basics of knowing your key audiences and alignment on your key audiences and making sure that you have a feeling that they are looking for something bigger and they are willing to change the brand and they’re willing to change the city. It’s the business strategy and the branding strategy, the city strategy and the branding strategy, they need to work in tandem, they need to work aligned. So if you think that everything is going to be complicated, which usually is complicated. But if you think that there is not going to be alignment and there are not going to be budgets, don’t bother to work on your brand.

Greg Clark

Very, very wise advice, Gonzalo, and thank you so much for spending this time with us. It’s been a real honour for us to have you here on The DNA of Cities.

Gonzalo Brujo

Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Caitlin.